Clarification

[Deb]

In my responses to Sharon's thread I want to try and make it clear that I do understand the guidelines of this program.

What I don't understand is how some can describe their HP and others can't. Although Sharon was trying to get across that we can't describe our Hp's she still went on to give a small description of hers when she said she prefers a Greater not a Higher - it is still a religious belief of hers and ought to fully remain that way if I understand the meaning of her actual post.

I can say my HP is my dog and not be accused of "shoving my beliefs down someone's throat" (maybe it is this actual sentence that bothers me - it is very aggressive - and two people in the thread used it)

Or I can say my HP is Jesus and boom - deletion - broken rules - and told the above aggressive statement or told to go join a christian program.

Sharon also mentioned she didn't have to believe in the "church" sense - I grew up in a home of alcoholics I didn't get taken to a church all my life - not everyone did - so I do not understand this statement either.

When I did go to church I thought I had to be perfect amongst all the perfect people and suffered silently inside because I knew I wasn't perfect. I came to see that the problem wasn't the people at church, the problem was my false belief of what it means to be in church. When I began to use 'honesty' and actually tell people what was going on inside me I was surprised to hear that I was among others who struggled yet come together because of the promises of God in Christ and found great comfort in their encouragement to press on and into God regardless of how I 'felt', to trust in His Truth.

I haven't met anyone in a 12 step program, who constantly focuses on 'the errors of church', to admit maybe they were the problem - even after doing the steps many times.

I had a private conversation with Campsurf the other day due to a post of mine being deleted that was responding to something he had said in his. He can use a Biblical persons name and suggest this person was all powerful and his post remains. I pointed out that the power came from God and my post is ***poof*** gone - not even a pm to me explaining why. This is the double standard that I find unfair. Now it could also have been deleted because I also shared that Jesus loved this ladies son - the original poster had already clarified she was a believer - I was speaking her language - not trying to convert her or anyone else - just encouraging her in what she already believes.

Anyway - I am free to share my thoughts and thank you for letting me - till this one goes **poof** as well for using that name that must not be named - gosh, maybe you all ought to call me Harry Potter. He wasn't afraid to say Voldemorts name.

Love Deb xxx

[jadebear]

Just wanted to give you a ((((hug)))) before this does poof....

[sharon]

Deb,
I'd like to clarify something...I've NEVER once shared whether I'm a christian, jew, bhuddist, muslim, atheist or anything else about MY religious preference.

For the sake of unity among the group and fellowship...I refer to my GREATER POWER period. What that is in detail....is a mystery to all of you.

God in Christ

which I quoted from your post...specifies Christian. That's what YOU believe....not all do.

You twisted the intent of my post to be an anti Christian post which it is NOT. The post was merely to point out what SPIRITUALITY was in regard to Nar-anon. Spirituality is NOT religion or it's beliefs.

Conceptions of God vary widely. Theologians and philosophers have studied countless conceptions of God since the dawn of civilization. The Abrahamic conceptions of God include the trinitarian view of Christians, the Kabbalistic definition of Jewish mysticism, and the Islamic concept of God. The dharmic religions differ in their view of the divine: views of God in Hinduism vary by region, sect, and caste, ranging from monotheistic to polytheistic to atheistic; the view of God in Buddhism is almost non-theist. In modern times, some more abstract concepts have been developed, such as process theology and open theism. Conceptions of God held by individual believers vary so widely that there is no clear consensus on the nature of God.[15] The contemporaneous French philosopher Michel Henry has however proposed a phenomenological approach and definition of God as phenomenological essence of Life.[16]

This definition came from Wikipedia and explains my point....Conceptions of God vary widely. Therefore, the word itself is non denominational. What it means to you or I is personal choice and that's the part we refrain from discussing.

for the sake of the ENTIRE group, all that is asked of any of us is to keep our faith and trust in the GOD of OUR UNDERSTANDING.

[Deb]

i understand that I twisted your post just as much as someone saying Jesus gets twisted into the fear of forcing religion.

That is my point - that refuses to be acknowledged.

[sanity100]

Dear Debi,

To answer your questions as to why some get to explain their HP's and some do Not... I am sincerely telling you the following:

In the 3 months I've been here... I've talked with Sharon endlessly... During this time and although I've talked to her often about finding an HP (for me)... She has only encouraged me to keep searching until I find the one that is right for me... Also, even though she has mentioned her own HP and her journey (upon my request) I still don't know exactly what it is... all I know is that it is not the conventional religious ONe... but that it works for her!

You on the other hand... I've communicated with you through PM's and postings (only briefly) yet I know who your HP is... JESUS CHRIST! And I also know that although you say "have the freedom to choose your own HP" at the same time you've warned me to make sure I choose the right one...."more than implying that if is not "Jesus Christ"... all else is not real...

So the difference is: Sharon encourages people to find the HP that works for each one of us. Debi tells you... search all you want, but if you do not come up with the "Jesus Christ" answer you are on the wrong track... THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! AND SINCE NAR-ANON TEACHES US TO WORK ON US AND WHAT WORKS FOR US... YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED IDEA OF WHAT 'THE HP" IS AND YOUR JUDGMENT OF ALL THOSE WHO DO NOT CHOOSE JESUS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG... for me and for many!

I have yet to choose one... but if I choose Jesus... it is not because you or anyone else told me that is the only way! it will be because that is what I determined to be the truth... and if I choose another HP - do not dare to tell me I am wrong! How dare You?

Yoly

[Deb]

Understood.

I guess we all ought to say - "How dare Jesus."

Love Deb xxx

[sanity100]

No... You still do not understand!

It is not "How Dare Jesus" - it is how dare Christians, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Buddhist, Scientology or any other believe say "we are the true faith"... and everyone else is going to Hell!!

Believe in your God and let the rest of the world believe in what they determine to be the "Source" of their spirituality... Just LET IT GO...

And yes.. I agree with your PM... the 12 step program is not the place to recruit souls... So if your purpose here is to recruit Christians instead of working on Recovery and drug addcition based on what works for Debi... you are definitely in the wrong program.

My humble opinion is that you come to Nar-Anon to work on Recovery... and you go to the Church of your choice to work on and get your spiritual needs... The two should mesh for you and you only... That is all!!

And by the way I do believe is Jesus... I just don't believe in how his word has been manipulated throughout the centuries to meet the Needs of the Church, and Society in general!

Yoly

[Deb]

Please re-read my original post.

The only point I ask to be acknowledged is the fact that if I say the word 'Jesus' I am not forcing my religion down someone's throat, as was implied by Sharon's post. I have never said that if you don't believe in Jesus you are all going to hell - not once ever - yet because people think this is what Jesus said it is implied that it what I am saying every time I use His name. Or because people think only christians say this not Jesus Himself somehow Christians are just evil little beasts out to be right and everyone else wrong.

Sharon said she has 'religious beliefs' and she has only ever shared that it is a Greater Power not a Higher Power - that is not fully honest - she has shared why she believes this in that very post therefore sharing her religious beliefs with us, even if the statement is vague and a mystery, yet no-one tells her she is shoving her religion down our throats by sharing what her HP means to her.

The whole point of not discussing religions, (discussing is more than saying a name and involves more than one person in the discussion), is the word religion - as Sharons wikipedia quote states there is more to religious belief than just Christian Jew or Hindu etc. Whatever you believe is a religious belief - spirituality is a religious belief. Dance with the words as much as you like - a spiritual point of view is still a religious belief.

When Sharon says she prefers greater instead of higher because she doesn't like being 'less than' she is sharing her religious belief. If she says she is not believing in the "church" sense she is implying that the church is wrong IF she does not clarify why she believes this.

Now why I suggest the whole 12 steps be rewritten is because Sharon says : "all that is asked of any of us is to keep our faith and trust in the GOD of OUR UNDERSTANDING"., I have searched and searched the steps and I cannot find where it says this. It says "as we understood Him." I have asked before who is Him and no-one can tell me.

The reason I believe as I do is because the whole story of God in the Bible is about a God who rescues and delivers people from captivity, to what enslaves them and surrounds them in darkness, and sets them free to truly live. I don't believe it because I got to determine it was true - I believe it because I was rescued by God. I will openly say I long for my loved ones and my friends to be rescued as well, to be set free from the disease darkness brings so they may truly live in Light and Love in this life and the next. I have been rescued by this God - is it wrong to want the same for those I care about and even those I do not even know?

That is a deeper look into my religious beliefs which is far different than what the name of Jesus paints across readers minds and therefore offends them.

I would never in any share suggest or imply the church is wrong for I may be preventing someone from seeking that path themselves. I could not face God with that on my conscience. Jesus loves the 'church' He says the gates of hell will not prevail against her - so I need not try. Now this church that Jesus speaks of is again far removed from the picture brought in to peoples minds that the word church can paint.

Deb xxx

[sanity100]

Debi... a well know fact among people is "not to discuss religion or politics" - and there is a reason - both encompass believes people feel extremely passionate about and the result is always certainly conflict...

I am reading a book about the 500 year history that took place in my home country around the 1500's... It is known in history books as a 500 year religious war between Christians and Muslims. What these people did to each other (each in the name of the "only God") is hard for most of us to even comprehend... Human slaughter... Human torture... a total desecration and disrespect for human life... and all in the name of "Jesus" or "Allah"... (depending on which side you were on)... This war was not just fraught by people it was fueled and supported by the Church that had tremendous influence on the Local Government... Back then Government and Church were one working entity.

And you are telling me that Our Christ believed in the Church we've seen for 2000 years ..? Sorry... Such a beautiful human being could not support the Church we've come to know during this time... and per Scripture he certainly did not believe in the Church of his time.

There is nothing wrong with Christ... there has been something wrong with Christianity for 2000 years!

Pray in Secret

...Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Yoly

P.S. As for Sharon... I've never felt she has imposed her spiritual believes on me... I am sorry you do!!

[Deb]

I haven't said that I feel Sharon is imposing her religious beliefs on me only that she may share her beliefs and no-one accusers her of 'shoving her religion down our throats'.

As to that war - and many others in the name of 'God' - I agree with you, that is why I made the distinction that the church that Jesus is building is different from the one most people associate church with.

We are not commanded to love one another, especially our enemies, because we can - God knows we can't - at any point we admit we can't - He says, "I know, let me help, let me do for you what you can't do in yourself". Divine intervention.

Very few find this kind of humility - I need this kind of Divine help daily. This is what Let go and let God means to me. I see the kind of love required when I meditate on what happened at the Easter Story - it was there that the war was won, where love overcame evil, in the moment when it looked like love lost, love conquered. In dying He lived. In surrender He was victorious.

I find hope for my darkest moments in the light of that moment and I can trust He will do in me what I can't do for myself. Love unconditionally. Looking inward isn't where I find serenity - it comes to me from looking outward at the story of my HP. The steps make more sense to me in light of the original giver of them - not Bill W. - the God who saved Bill W. I will never make sense of why Bill wasn't shouting that good news from the rooftops, it will always appear to me that Bill capitulated and compromised. Yet I don't lose sleep over it - it is between Bill and God - I will always be grateful to the God who saved Bill W, the God who set him free of his disease. The Divine Healer.

Love Deb xxx

[sharon]

I wasn't gonna say one word on this......

However, MY name is being tossed around like a basketball here and I AM VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THIS.

Deb...I find the fact that YOU have ASSUMED anything about my religious beliefs appalling. That you Assume I do not go to church, synagogue, mosque, temple or any other communal gathering is appalling. WHO are YOU to judge me?????

I am NOT above the traditions and guidelines of our forum or the program itself. I've spent many years working my steps and traditions with my sponsor.

In answer to your question....who is HIM? It's whoever YOU believe it is period. Who you believe is your personal choice like everyone elses. It's not anyones job to define it but YOU. And HIM could be HER or IT...thats my ENTIRE point. It does NOT matter one bit. By tossing other ideas out to the group does NOT mean I am saying anyone's choice is wrong or not right. Its another point of view...Period.

Nar-anon is NOT the place to debate ANY of this. Nar-anon is for us to work on us while loving an addict...period.

This is soooooooo not healthy for any of us.

I'm pleading for folks to let this rest. Agree to disagree and MOVE ON. And please...Leave me out of any further debate if anyone MUST reply.

[monajean]

And, this is why we keep discussion of religion out of the rooms. People just seem to get pissed off, and it's just one of those things that we agree to disagree on.

One of the first things I did when I ventured into Nar-Anon, was to look up the difference between being spiritual and being religious, simply because I did not realize that there was a difference.

Spirituality is a one on one, personal relationship with whom ever you choose to call your Higher Power.
'Jesus, whom I choose to call my Higher Power", is a statement that offends no one, as far as I'm concerned.

Being religious is strict adherence to religious doctrine.
What crosses the line into religion, are things such as, "Jesus, the Son of God." It implies specific religious doctrine. And that is what we are asked not to bring into the rooms.

So, call your HP anything you want. Just let it go after that. And remember, as it states so eloquently in the suggested format that is read at the start of meetings....."If someone says something that you don't agree with, they are speaking of their own experience, they are not speaking for Nar-Anon."

Just my opinion and experience,

Love, Jeannie

[Lawanda]

I was raised in the church all my life. I believe in Jesus Christ, always have and always will but I don't condem people who have different beliefs than I. I don't say I am right and they are wrong, it is not my place to judge. I don't assume my HP whom I choose to call God should be what eveyone else calls him.

This is why religion has no place in any 12-step program period!

This post is being locked for the same reasons that the other one was. This is my final warning. If this topic comes up again on either forum it will not be locked, it will be deleted.

In Service
Lawanda